KreativJoker

Hi Guys. I´m again here as I read your E-mail that you make a special PLO week.

Now I have some short Questions.

Will you say how the reality PLO Matches will played or is this again one like the other things you can find out there in the net everywhere?

Cause I think you will again say in your videos that if you want to learn PLO than you have to play tight in the beginning, play connected and suited cards, look on your Position and only if you hit the Flop hard than you can play and invest more money.

But sorry I studied the REAL PLO Matches online now the last 2 Month (had always 20 Tables open, saw what kind of hands the guys played, and saw the largest winner there almost 12 hours a day - and did not played by myself only focusing on looking) and everything that was given from all Poker Coaching Sides as tips has nothing to do with the todays reallity in online PLO Poker.

The largest Winner there play almost every hand (not only connected and Suited) and always bets and Reraise with almost every shit on hand (One Pair, 4 Overs, lowflushes, Lowsets and so on).

I have a short hand here which will played same way again and again from almost the most player there (and the biggest winners, not only in a short term - they play every day and every day they play the same way and win).

6-Max PLO 5 Pokerstars

Player 1 5,61 $ (UTG) Openraised to 0.15 $
Player 2 3,65 $ Reraises to 0,52 $
Player 3 12,23 $ Reraises to 1,78 $
Player 4 14,24 $ Folds
Player 5 7,72 $ (SB) Reraises to 6,06 $
Player 6 5,76 $ (BB) Folds
Player 1 Folds
Player 2 Folds
Player 3 Raises to 10,34
Player 5 Calls 7,74 and is all-in

So first the play before the Flop. Player 3 is a constant winner there over many hands I saw him. So the first thought of me was (and I would bet of the 90% of you) there must be a strong hand for both of them to reraise till death.

So now I can tell you what hands are around.

Player 3 the constant winner there every time he played. He had 443
9 Pow!!!!!!!!! I will again say constant winner there!!!!!!!!!!!

Then you can think Player 5 who first 5bets his hand is much stronger then he must have a monster.
Here his hand: KJQ6 damn!!!!!!!! why he 5 bet?

The Board shows A51078 and mr. confused winner wins again (like almost the whole time he comes to the tables).

Now you will say this happens sometimes and he will get an upswing in future. But the thing is - he comes every day almost the same time, sit in with 5 $ (no rebuy) and played every hand like this one over 2 Month!!!!!!!!! and after he has 50$ he leave the table, goes to another and made the same thing again and again. And this every!!!!! day!!!!!! for 2 Month now!!!!!!. But this is only luck ---- for sure.

And this is not the only thing. I saw there many People who tried to play with discipline (Played good hands) and they all fall down to reallity. This doesn´t work.

So I hope for all watchers of the videos you made that the videos show the reality and not again a simple copy of "Jeff Hwang - Pot Limit Omaha". Cause this definitly won´t work to play profitable PLO online today.

Sometimes I have the assumption that all the tips you can get are only to hold the 95 % loosing player in game and give the 5% winning Player the Possibility to win more and more (cause they know exactly how the most of the 95% loosing Player play - cause they trained them).

So sorry I don´t believe the alleged Pros who wanna show you how you should react and how the game will be Profitable cause reality shows me another side of it.

And one short note : Look at Isildur or Dwan who played extremly loose and they all are not broke. So there will always two sides of the coin.

Last Post 7 years ago by

cindichang23

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Lets call in the PLO masters to take a look at this one

So the way to look at this, is short term vs long term, and how you define both, its entirely possible that this player flips constantly and wins, and could do so reasonably over a 20k sample or larger, however long term and when moving up percentages matter. It's true that pre flop equitty runs closer in plo than hold em, but to embrace a flipping style is to invite disaster long term, albeit with possible upswings before the bad news occurs. To compare it hold em in a 5nl game you will see players limping rubbish q4 etc to call pre and take a flop, and this can happen in plo, and due to the swingy nature can seem like a solid strategy for some players

To illustrate the point, there's my last 20kish hands at plo 50z, it goes without saying that I do not beat the game for 20bb/100 long term, so variance works both ways

Do not underestimate the variance of PLO

@KreativJoker

I also don't think you want to be looking at PLO5 grinders as the great standard for solid PLO play. There's situations to be playing a wide range of hands (ie. defending the BB), but don't think that PF hand selection doesn't matter because "lol 4 cards".

Well done sir,

and exactly this is the Point of all. You all make great videos and show nice graphs about how this game will work from PLO25 and above. But if there is a beginner he will not beginn at PLO25. He starts most of time at PLO2 or PLO5. And there all the tips you give are not useable. There are many Reg. Players who stay in this Level and never move up. Why? Cause they created a Game that exactly works against Player who beginn and who follow the instruction in the "nice Videos from other Pros or Trainers".

Now you will all say that you all started to Play in Lower Limits. But if you all would be serious. This is a long time ago. And Game changed in this time. What worked for you I think 5 Years ago is today against the REG Player in Lower Limits the absolute Crash for a Beginner.

And to Move up in Limits from PLO2 to ??? was practicable a few years ago. But today it´s almost impossible. and so the most beginners end their journey to PLO. And this is the dead of the Game.

So if you really want to show People how the Game work then sit down by yourself and play PLO2 and also PLO5 (and not only one or two sessions) and show them how they can move up in Levels and also that their is another Game to play in PLO2 or PLO5 then in PLO50 (with Player who think if a Reraise will made and what it can mean).Then you really help People and don´t say same things that where said many times before (Jeff Hwang - Pot Limit Omaha).

Well, the probabilities don't change according to stakes. There are many weird players at PLO2/PLO5, and your story looks like a combination of variance and selective memory. If you are so sure that someone sits with 5 bucks, no reload, makes 50 a night every day for 2 months, please send his hands database and we can see what he is doing in reality.

The game itself doesn't change when you go below PLO25. It's still about probabilities and ranges. I don't have huge sample size graph from PLO4, but this one shows you that it's still very beatable with the things you can see on my videos (focus on the orange line, lol):
Attached Image

From PLO10 I have a bit more hands:
Attached Image

Poker is a funny game. It should be a game where rational and logical minds rule the zoo, but for most players the emotions and feelings take over. What you are saying just doesn't make sense. You actually say that the video creators at PokerVIP can't beat PLO2/PLO5 because the things in their videos don't work. That's where you fail to understand that poker AT ANY LEVEL should be about adjusting to your opponents. We don't play a set strategy until the end of the world, we adapt and adjust to our opponents to make money. Now if someone decides to shove any hand preflop (those nice 100/100/100 guys) then you just need to adjust to that. And it doesn't matter if it's PLO2 or PLO2K, you still have to do it. The only difference between PLO2 and PLO2K is the player pool. And if you want to make money, you need to adjust to your opponents.

And pardon me, but if someone is making 10 buyins a night at PLO5 and doesn't move up because they have cracked PLO5, that's just silly. PLO5 regs play there for a reason. And the reason is not that they are so good.

P.S. Don't play ilke Jeff Hwang for starters.

P.S.S. Maybe I can scratch the surface of this topic on one of the next week's videos...

P.S.S.S. I am 100% sure that I can get up from PLO2. The problem is that I am not going to put my time to that without some $$$ out of it. Maybe we can settle a prop bet?

Nice graphs. But you did not show from when this Handhistory is. I would bet it´s some years ago.

For handhistory of the people .... I wrote in the beginning that i studied tables online. have no database of it. opened around 20 tables for 12 hours and after this i looked over the hands there played in this time. and made notes by myself about big winner on this table. and this for 2 month every day.

And for real. I can tell you more than 50 Regulars there who makes big money on PLO5 and never move up cause their system works in this Level. Why should they go to higher level if they created a system to get big money from beginners??????? (they do not moveup cause on higher levels player are more difficult to play). Its so pretty simple cause all beginners look the same videos online or trough poker schools and play like they get the infos there.

So I will see your videos through the next week and look if it says the same like all other videos or if there are some infos how beginner not will crushed by the Big winning Regulars on lower Limits. And that they are there is a fact.

Please show those 50 players so we can check if we can find any information on them.

In any given day, a maniac is probably the biggest winner. And another maniac is the biggest loser. But to say that maniacs are only winning is a bit absurd.

Those graphs are from 2015-2017.

When someone cold 4bets 9443ss I am pretty much 100% sure that his winnings are not the outcome of some kind of super system. That's just pure luck or has something to do with cheating. There isn't a system that can beat probabilities.

Do I get this right? You say that you have observed 20 tables for 12 hours a day, for two months? Just by watching and didn't use any tracking software?

Here are first the names of 10 Player. Have a lot more but first for you to look.

_XPeH_TeBe_ (Russia)
XepcoHCity (Ukraine)
sent13nce (Germany)
NTT123 (Lituania)
Mr. 100won (SouthKorea)
ErnieTaylor (Belarus)
DrSFreud (Germany)
vanhuyphuc1 (vietnam)
neXOTa (Belarus)
hualovet (GreatBritain)

That it has something to do with cheating I also thought.

So now for the Point with watching and analysing 20 tables. I have HoldemManager but I do not really come to terms with it.

I played a lot Poker till end last year. But the Problem I had is that I always lost again the same guys with top hands (most time more than 65 %). And this almost every time. So i said to myself how can I find out how they play and why always the same guys have so much luck. Because of I´m an absolute technic nerd (not the good one) I saw the only possibility to find out how they play or if they have really so much luck was to open as much tables as Possible and observ. So I opened 20 Tables and this almost the whole time. After a few hours I opened the "show Previous hands" window and analysed all hands and all People who sit on this table.

I know this was not efficent but this was the only way for me to get more Infos about this people and their playing.

And so I saw that there where a lot of Regulars with almost the same kind of style. they are all overly aggressiv against guys who play a tight style with almost every hand and they always hit what they need.

Sometimes it seemed that they have so much luck because of their agressiv style cause no matter with which hand they entered the Pot (they always 3-bet most time hands that are almost totally Trash like K962 non suited) and they hit exactly what they need (for hand before for example Flop 996). And not sometimes. 90% of the time.

That´s why I have sometimes the apprehension that Pokersides rewards this people because of their RakeProduce (aggression with almost every hand and Big Pots). But here it´s not about the integrity of pokersides. So I saw that it is not possible to play a tight style in Micro because of so much Regs with exactly same Style winning over the tight, mathematicly good playing People.

If you are not using tracking software like Holdem Manager or PokerTracker, the problem comes with selective memory. You have a thought that those maniacs know something you don't and they are winners. Selective memory reinforces that thought every time when you see them stacking off with a hit, and bypasses the other 9 times when they fold on turn or river.

The only way to get neutral proof is to get their hands to tracking software and see how much is their all-in adjusted winnings and how often they actually hit their hands etc.

Against tight opponents LAG style is good adjustment. Against calling stations LAG is going to fail. Against LAG opponents tighter and a bit passive style is good adjustment. And so on.

Too bad PTR isn't working, I can't check those guys. I have played some with neXOTa, after 2K hands his ev adjusted winrate is -43bb/100 on my database. Looking at this graph I find it hard to believe that he is some kind of PLO5 crusher who makes huge winnings night after night.
Attached Image

Sample size is small, but at least it's more than what you have provided. Here are some more:

Attached Image

None of those look like a solid crusher who makes 10 buyins every night. So are you sure it's not just selective memory?

Sure it can be that I don´t see all hands they play. I can only open 20 Tables but if they play same time at table I have not open I miss the hands they play there.

Thanks for the infos you wrote in post before.

I would say I look the next weeks the videos and hope to get better results against this overly aggresiv maniacs.

On average PLO2-PLO5 field there aren't that many maniacs. Most of the opponents are loose-passive calling stations.

The last 2 Days I played again on Pokerstars. I played almost 5000 hands. And what should I say. Exactly the same guys I wrote to you are also again on the table. And I lost really every (round about 400 coinflips and I lost 350) against this guys. and again only against this guys (also the 10 I gave to you)

Now I´m absolute sure. This has nothing to do with luck or good and bad play. On Pokerstars there are defintily Winning and Loosing accouts. And mine definitly is a loosing account. no matter how good my equity in a hand is ... I loose. I have 90%!!!!!!!!!!!! winning chance. I loose. Every!!!!! time I have 70 % chance I loose. 90% of my 65% chances .... I loose. 80% of my coinflips ..... I loose...

I have definitly no more fun in OnlinePoker cause now I´m absolute sure. This is definitly rigged.

To be fair it sounds like online poker isnt for you,so its s good thing your done with it. Sounds like youd struggle mentally with NLH so why the f**k your playing PLO baffles me.

Good players evaluate their own game and leaks and improve,your just whining and the story we hear time and time again is its rigged.Really?

Go study,practice study database etc etc. The above posters are too nice to say it but Your losing for one reason only and it isnt cos pokers rigged.

And get a tracker and see how lucly/unlucky you really are.

In PLO variance can be a bitch. As you see in my PLO4 graph above I've run over 60 buyins UNDER EV in 10K hands sample size. Lots and lots of lost all-in situations. And it has nothing to do with online poker being rigged.

Hi Kyyberi,

to say you what I mean is this..... I run almost 240 BI under EV with a samplesize of 70.000 Hands.... and my Trackingsystem showed me that I always loose against the same guys......

I get runner runner after runner runner..... 90% of the time when i have a top hand (85% and above) I loose. And sorry after such a long period I know now that this has nothing to do with unlucky.. Cause if this should be I would be the invidioused Person in Omaha.... This is all made of the Pokerside... I also saw that specially the largest side make it this way....

I play and be up for example 3 BI after 2 or 3 sessions. ..... Then If I log out and log in again after a while there was an "update" made by this side.... after this "update" I play same way like the sessions before .... but I loose almost every hand and also I never hit any top hand (15 outer)...... so it goes then for the next 20 sessions - till I run extremly under EV. Then suddenly another "update" comes .... and after this Update .... I win again some sessions and also hit nice flops and can make a few peanuts (up to 3-4 BI) .... then after I made again 4 BI up .... again an "Update" comes (It seems that this Pokerside has always news on their Webside). After this "update" oh wonder ..... I loose every hand and never hit any good Flop.

But ok ..... I accept that this is the normal way in Poker (sarkasm) .... And sometimes you have ups and sometimes you have downs.... but its a little bit funny that always the same guys have ups (The most rake Producer and how I said always the same accounts) and the most have downs (the guys who made several deposites before). Nice way to handle with guys who really wanna learn the game and almost learned for 2 years 10 hours a day to get infos. Thats the way how this Pokerside who only wants to do as much profit as possible kills the game of some guys only for greed of gain.

And I think that you and the most on this side are not on the side of the deposit person and so you did not know what exactly I and many others has to handle with. cause if I see the videos of you and the other ---- you get good hands and then also hit good flops... sorry I loose 80 % of my AA (only the doublesuited) against the dumbest hands and after I made a Reraise with such a Top hand I know exactly after I did it I loose the hand (like the most time) And if I´m not loosing it I get 5 BB winning of the rest.... and this is sure like the amen in the church for my account..... After you would see a session I play you would definnitly say the same...

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