Danwan

LFCchris:

CrazyCookie:

Danwan: Even if we have about 40% equity with KJs vs villains continuing-range its still more profitable to 3-bet them instead of flatting them he says.

Lol this is bs. There are so many variables postflop that you cannot just say that you need x percentage to make preflop 3b better than a call!

3b will be +EV sure, but when we flat we have all his KTs K9s, JQs JTs, J9s and all his small pp. So when we make to we dominate more of villains range. Moreover this hand is perfect for floating a lot of boards because it will have a drawbof some kind a lot or will block most of his TP combos (KQ/qjon qx, AK/aj on ax). This means we will have quite a high EV call on a lot of flop textures and given we are in position will be able to bet when checked to and win on a lot of board textures.

You can have a strategy where you have at as a 3b bluff sure, but I would rather use this and some other BW combos, pp and ATs-AQs to negate villains advantage on Ax, kx and qx flops and because none of these hands are loving life in a 3bp with TP. They either don't win any more money v smaller pp or are beat a lot.

Never said the 3b was bad, I just think that having it in a calling range will be a higher EV espically given the 2x raise from a passive fish.

Also in terms of getting folds... He is opening 13% of hands and is utg... I don't know if our fold equity even makes this amazing +EV as a 3b bluff.

As you say hes a little on the passive side so to expect half of those hands is optimistic if he has hands like J9s K9s , your expecting him to have an RFI UTG of somewhere around 15% - 20% , i just don't think its any where near that.

You also have to consider how often we get squeezed when we call here if we are calling a wide range from these positions , i think KJs is right on the edge of call or 3bet , personally i much prefer 3betting it from MP vs UTG , its certainly not a mistake to call it though i wouldn't think.

So by that logic his entire range is either crushing us, has 60% or 50%. When he crushes us we lose, when he has 60% we don't get much more than one Street and v still has equity and when he has 50% money only goes in when he has a set and we get crushed!!

Not seeing much sense in putting more money in preflop with that scenario

Alternatively we can call getting nice odds with a hand that can make monster hands and is up against a slightly weaker range and invite multiway action which I want with a hand that plays best in multiway small pots....

CrazyCookie: If we have a reason to do something that differs from our strategy and that reason will exploit villain then it will be fine. Just always double think your logic.

I agree that isolating a fishy looking player will be a good idea, and we may get squeezed which is a shame. But think about the range the fish opens with and then continues v the 3b, we mostly don't get to play him now with a range full of TJ, JQ, KQ KTs and 22-66. It's goig to be ATs+ 88-QQ maybe KQs. That is not a range KJs is doing great against

It's a pretty hand and very easy to make an excuse for 3betting but when we get postflop we struggle to get loads of value from it so use it to bluff. This is still going to be +EV (so long as you have good reads/understand when to be bluffing KJs and how often you can given your value range on different flop textures

) but it makes it a bit of a tough hand to play. On this board say it goes x/c. What are we getting called by OTT that is worse than KJ? We end up getting similar ammount of money in the pot as we would have if we call then put money in otf ott and decide otr but we get tonplay v bluffs, worse jx.

What did he turn up with BTW? Waiting for the bit where you say he shoves TJ and makes me look stupid lol

Half of those hands likely aren't in his UTG range , were not 3betting it because its pretty , were 3betting it because we think its a little to loose to call and a little to good to fold we can also iso the fish HU . .

CrazyCookie: So by that logic his entire range is either crushing us, has 60% or 50%. When he crushes us we lose, when he has 60% we don't get much more than one Street and v still has equity and when he has 50% money only goes in when he has a set and we get crushed!!

Not seeing much sense in putting more money in preflop with that scenario

We don't expect our bluffs to be ahead when called , they wouldn't be bluffs if they were ahead of his calling range . We expect him to fold here 70% 80% of the time so its +ev to 3bet , we also expect KJs to have around 25% - 30% equity when called. We also don't need to overvalue our hand postflop , we don't want to be auto shoveling lots of money in with tp. If he continues vs the 3bet with a wider range our equity only increases.

I look forward to seeing more on this one , i think its a very interesting hand.

No don't give the results! That spoils everything, imho.

Personally I like a lot of the points people have made here, even when they go against each other. I'd prob never 3bet this hand vs this specific V, he's pretty tight in general and he's UTG, but if you want to 3bet vs other V's, I can see it sometimes. We're not even close to closing the action, so I'd prob rather fold > 3bet > call. (When I can rfi or BTN vs CO/MP I'm a total LAGtard, but when UTG opens I'll tighten right up.)

As played, since we 3bet, and I think we all acknowledge it was kind of as a bluff, well, we got caught. No big deal, but time to cut our losses. I'd fold the flop, and in micros I never worry about "being exploitable" cuz most of our V's aren't good enough to really do that. Tight, not very aggro V's are more likely to fit-or-fold OOP, and to c/c with any TP (which almost always is AJ) or c/c one street with a PP. This guy is trying to tell us he has QQ or a set and feels comfy stacking off with it. I'm willing to shrug-fold an not lose sleep over it.

I filtered my database to see how KJs was doing. (697 000 hands) my overall "win" rate is -0,97bb/100 hands..... I need a coach... recomendations?

Hole cards: KJs
Hero´s position: MP, CO, BU
Preflop actions: Single raise from UTG, MP or CO

The results was very bad and scary.

I have had KJs in MP, CO and Bu 301 times vs a preflopraise from UTG, MP or CO.

When I made a 3bet with KJs I lost alot!!
When I coldcalled them I also lost pretty much.
When I folded them I was break even.

Would be nice to see how much profit you have had with KJs vs a single raise and you are in position.

Dude, buy yourself a beer. Doing the database work is so unsexy, but so important. Don't worry about the money you've lost, be proud of all the money you are about to save. But while you're drinking the beer, you can look at how you lose the money: did you flop TP? Call with draws? Do you bet when checked to, and how's that going?

Maybe others will chime in with their stats but mine won't help. First off, since switching sites, I only have 40K hands of cash in the past year (I only play part time and split between live, online cash and online MTT; I have lots of 6max hands from my time on Stars but my game is so much different from back then). I mostly only play FR NL100, and in those 40K hands I've only been in this spot (KJs calling an EP or MP raise) exactly 1 time.

KJs is sexy, but can be a lot of trouble. Sometimes it's good to push ourselves with playing hands like this, but personally I'd do it vs V's I have lots of hands on so I think I will know how to control them. If I ever want to move up to NL200, NL100 6max, or 2/5 live, then I'll need to learn some more trickery, but for now, I'm happy keeping it simple and letting someone else pay for my sordid lifestyle choices.

Well.
This is what villain had.
I spewed the turn and should have folded.

Attached Image

i like the preflop iso3bet. 25/13 is rather a weak player ,weak players dont have an UTG RANGE ,they have a hand they like or not so having KJs here and also POSITION is just easy +EV.
plus the sizing u use here ,its just 1$ to call for him so his sample of hands he is going to see flop is wide.
im not foldin here ,it doesnt matter if he has QQ or J9 ,its weak player and they do some stupid shit from time to time.

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